Power Without Apology with Annalie Howling: What Happens When You Finally Stop Shrinking

Annalie Howling: 00:00:00

Don't shame yourself. If you have grown in a different direction, it's okay.

Roxy Manning: 00:00:05

Power sometimes for women can feel like a dirty word. You know, like we're not supposed to want to be powerful or go after power.

Annalie Howling: 00:00:12

I should have done this, I should have done that. I should lose five pounds. Should. Should be a swear word.

Roxy Manning: 00:00:19

Ugh. We need to let go of this like bad girl notion. It causes so many problems.

Annalie Howling: 00:00:24

You know, I think some of the shame based narratives is that one should sort of go away to pasture and then only reemerge when you're perfect again.

Roxy Manning: 00:00:32

Sometimes that means that you're not in line with your romantic partner anymore. So how does that play out?

Annalie Howling: 00:00:38

Your soft heartedness is your superpower to be grateful, frankly? Cause I sleep really well at night because my clear conscience is my softest pillow.

Roxy Manning: 00:00:46

It seems like we're caretaking everything and everyone except ourselves.

Annalie Howling: 00:00:51

Spoiler alert. There is a cure for shame, everyone, and it's self compassion.

Roxy Manning: 00:00:59

What if the one thing holding you back midlife isn't your age, your hormones or your circumstances, but your shame? Today I'm joined by Analee Howling, performance coach and author of Unapologetic. Unshackle your shame, reclaim your power.

And we are cracking open the silent weight so many women carry. We're talking about how shame hides behind perfectionism, people pleasing and playing small, and how to finally set ourselves free.

If you've ever felt like you're too much, not enough, or somehow wrong just for wanting more, this conversation will hit you right where you need it.

Follow along at the iconic Midlife and edcarpetroxy across all platforms and tag us while you're listening and send this episode to someone who's ready to let go of who they were told to be. And don't forget to follow the show because your next chapter doesn't come with apologies.

Annalie Howling: 00:01:52

Okay.

Roxy Manning: 00:01:53

Analy, welcome. Welcome to the Iconic Midlife. How are you today?

Annalie Howling: 00:01:57

Oh, thank you so much. I'm just really excited to be here with you.

Roxy Manning: 00:02:01

Oh, well, I'm so excited that you are here with us as well. I know you're coming in from London, correct?

Annalie Howling: 00:02:06

I am. Okay. I am. And we're having a little heat wave here, so I could be in the US at the moment. But yeah, I am. Great.

Roxy Manning: 00:02:13

It's almost like you're having a California summer.

Annalie Howling: 00:02:16

We're going to tell ourselves that, then we'll get all cross about it and then we'll have something to complain about and then we can't cope. But yeah, we are.

Roxy Manning: 00:02:22

That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, I want to thank you so much because I dived into your book Unapologetic, right when I got it. It was so good.

I even bookmarked, as you can see, so many pages. It's. You just. You speak so well about this whole sort of notion of shame and about how we as women especially carry so much shame.

So what was sort of the impetus to make you want to put this to paper?

Annalie Howling: 00:02:53

Thank you. So thank you for what you said as well, and thank you so much. I. I don't think we understand shame. I mean, that's the. That's the main reason.

I think there are brilliant, brilliant how to books out there on a myriad of kind of subjects where we delve into self help and healing and wellness and they're great. But I don't think there's been anything so far that really gets under the bonnet of shame.

And because shame is so deeply, deeply entrenched in our system, if we're not working with shame, if we're not able to get a hold of our shame and get that out into the light, I think the other things become more of a band aid fix rather than really addressing the wound. And this is something that I was seeing in my private practice.

You know, I work with Olympians and celebrities from LA and, you know, also beautiful human souls that have endured things they never should have done.

And there was a unifying theme that when I was kind of explaining things like the foreign trauma response or I was explaining where they were holding shame despite things having been done to them and where that holds us back, that was just such a light bulb moment. And it was really creating like seismic shifts in people's lives.

And so I wanted to do the book because you have to have privilege to have a session with me. And I wanted to try and make this really accessible. And in. I love what you said about being able to go through it.

I wanted to make the language really accessible as well, in a way that you didn't feel like you had to work too hard at it. I think you have an experience when you're reading the book. I mean, you know, it's not nice.

There's some things in there that are really hard to read, but I wanted almost as you turned the pages that you could kind of feel this resonance and that shift was happening for you.

Because I just think we're so goddamn overwhelmed that, you know, I am a single mum like you give me another thing to do, even with really good intention, I can't do it. I'VE got too much on. So I wanted to almost, like I say, create a book that also gave you an experience that gave you a shift.

Roxy Manning: 00:04:48

It really did. And, you know, I think you bring up so many great points in this book. And, you know, one of the things you said was that shame thrives in silence.

And that really resonated because I think we as women, and especially in this stage of life, you know, for decades we've been like the good girls or we're supposed to do everything right, you know, and really kind of hold ourselves together in that way and kind of, you know, live like that. So how do we even begin to identify where the shame is in our lives and that we've absorbed for so long?

Annalie Howling: 00:05:23

Yeah. Thank you. I think shame is a tricky, A tricky thing.

It's this insidious substance that's so deeply entrenched and it is actually very, very difficult to put into words. I mean, if I asked you to list out some of your anxieties, we could do that.

Bang, you know, straight away, oh, this is, you know, the thoughts that kind of churn through our head because we have access to them so easily. Whereas shame is actually a felt sense, very somatic. It's deeply in our system.

So it's quite difficult to give a language to shame to the reason I wrote the book because I think we've got language around it. Oh, okay. I didn't realize it was shame. I thought I was anxious or I thought it was guilt or something else. So shame is an I am.

It always begins with an I am. And it's a limiting belief. I was just a beautiful is nearly the solstice.

It was a beautiful women's circle event today and we were releasing things that no longer served us. And pretty much every woman going up to the. The fire pit to release self doubt. I'm not enough. Feelings of worthlessness, that shame.

So I am not enough. I am unlovable, I am unworthy. I am broken, I am helpless. I'm hopeless, I'm weak, I'm disgusting, I am terrified. I'm incapable.

Those are shame statements, but they live so deeply within our system. As I mentioned, always this like guttural feeling.

And you know when you're experiencing shame because you have that horrible sense of almost nausea, you know, if I am feeling ashamed, like we're ashamed of our shame, if I feel I've done something shameful, you know, if you've ever had a pet and they have a little accident in the house, they are. You can see that they're really ashamed. And we have those things, you know, I. I said the wrong thing and I think I may have hurt someone's feelings.

I took up too much space in that boardroom meeting and felt that my colleague didn't have the same opportunity. I took a risk and wore something that made me. I thought was really great, and people gave me a certain look.

And then we start kind of shrinking, as you mentioned. We start going back into being a good girl, we start dimming ourselves, and we're just not serving anyone in that way. So shame is.

If you're finding yourself with an underlying limiting belief that keeps coming up, often in different ways. Anxiety is almost your surface level, kind of indicator that something else is happening.

Anxiety, a good definition is that you're not able to access the present moment.

You're either catastrophizing over the future or your coulda woulda shouldering, which is a bit more guilt based over things you may have done in the past and you're wishing to have done it differently. But shame, if we're suffering with it, is this ever present sense of our own brokenness. And fundamentally, I want to hide that.

I want to do anything except allow someone to see my shame. Because if you, if you saw my shame, you'd surely reject me, you know.

Roxy Manning: 00:08:15

And I think it's interesting because I think a lot of people conflate shame and guilt. You know, they kind of interchange the two. So what, how would you describe guilt as opposed to shame? And is guilt actually.

Can guilt be helpful in life at times?

Annalie Howling: 00:08:32

Yeah, I think absolutely, yeah. So guilt is a thing that I did. Shame is a thing I believe I am. So I give the example. You may have heard me chatting off there.

My daughter, who's just turned nine, was coming around to ask me something and, you know, traffic. I've been at this event all day. It was a little bit late picking up from school. You know, I could say all these things.

I could be like, oh, babe, Roxy, didn't feel like I did great today, should have left more time. Oh, that's me being guilty. I could give you the same set of circumstances that happened today.

And I could say to you, you know, why didn't I leave more time? I always do this. I am a bad mother. I'm such a failure. That is shame. That's the difference. So guilt is a thing that you did.

And absolutely to your point, we can use that as learning.

You know, if I'm using today, I could be like, should have left 10 minutes earlier, you know, or simple things, you know, actually didn't feel good when I. I said that thing or that. Or actually I didn't feel good when I didn't express myself fully, unapologetically. I. That didn't make me feel great or.

I mean, you know, it's a good indicator as well, around sometimes situations we put ourselves in, maybe some toxic friendship set up so we might get into that later. But the. The shame is an entirely different beast. It really is.

It's something that you believe yourself to be and you fundamentally believe yourself to be broken.

Roxy Manning: 00:09:54

Okay, I see. You know, as far as women, also in this stage of life, I know I feel a lot of people and even myself at times.

You know, there's like this invisibility factor. You kind of feel invisible, you know, Whereas in your 20s and 30s, maybe you felt a little more vibrant and seen by people and. And heard.

And there's this like, invisibility that kind of happens during midlife. And I'm wondering, is that tied to shame as well, or is that something kind deeper than that?

Annalie Howling: 00:10:24

I think it can be. I think because you may have. Certainly for myself, I can give the example. So I turn 44 next month, and I really believe that I've had two lives.

It feels so distinct to me. And the first part, my first life, was very shameful. And by that I mean I was so full of shame that what I did. I believed myself to be bad.

I had a very violent childhood. I know you've read this, but for the listeners, I had a very violent childhood.

My father was violent, and my mother colluded and backed him up and told me that I was wrong. So I had no safe person in the house. So I internalized that belief. Well, I must be so bad because these two people put on the earth to love me.

I must be so appalling that they have no choice. They would also tell me that it was my. My fault. I made them do it, you know, they had no choice but to punish me in such a way.

So I must be so awful and bad and disgusting.

So I am bad, which was my underlying limiting belief, was born then really young, and that taking that through my life, I'm desperate then for friends. I desperately want to have friends because I don't have a good relationship with my family at home. And so I'm not standing up for myself.

I'm accepting scraps in some situations don't grow. I've had some nice friendships, but not always. And I wouldn't be asserting myself.

I wouldn't be Saying, actually I do mind about that, or, you know, and then going into relationships, you can imagine the kind of relationships and things that I. We can call it tolerated. But let's be honest, things I thought I deserved because I fundamentally believed myself to be a bad person.

And then for myself, the other layer on was this necessity to try and hide my shame. So I just became really perfect. Like I. To the point of burnout, which I think again, a lot of women can resonate with.

You know, I feel ashamed of my shame. I don't want anyone to see it because if they do, they'll reject me. They won't want to know me if they knew what I was really like.

If you knew what I was really like. I'm not a good girl. I know. I think in different ways. I look at what everyone else is doing and I don't feel like that inside.

Things have happened to me that I think you'll judge me for. So what I'll do instead is I'll mask and I'll be really, really perfect. And so there's never an opportunity like I'm spinning all the plates so fast.

I'll be the perfect hostess, I'll be the perfect girlfriend. I'll be, you know, perfect employee. I'll do that. I'll say, yes, let me help you. Let me put your needs above my own.

Which fundamentally for myself led to a burnout. But that was my shameful life.

And then for me, on the other side of doing the work around shame and having that completely out of my system, which, spoiler alert, there is a cure for shame, everyone, and it's self compassion. How we get there is a bit more challenging.

But when I had found my way to that deep self compassion rather than self criticism, and that took over my system instead of. And I did become unapologetic, hence the name of the book. But the other thing that I am is utterly, utterly shameless.

And there's a British English saying which I think is American as well, which is, have you no shame? You know, have you no shame? And it's like, you know what, babe? No, I don't. And like, it's the most liberating thing I can't begin to tell you. I feel.

I feel borderline unhinged because it's just so light. There's so much freedom in my life now compared to this relentless pursuit of perfectionism. As I say, to hide myself. That's what I was doing.

That's what Shane did to me. And so I think with women, we are so Conditioned to be a boss, do these things, but don't take from someone else.

Like, for heaven's sake, don't be too much. But no one ever told us what too much was.

So we fly close to the sun like Icarus, and then we go, oh, I think I'm maybe too much here, so I better dull down a bit.

You know, you, you, you've got some good news, but, you know, your friend's having a tough time or you're at a dinner table and someone doesn't cheer for you, and we then just would just suck it all back in again and just be pretty and polite and color within the lines because that's safe for us. And this is, for me, the kind of work that I had to really unpick at a very deep level. And that's what I've put in the book.

Roxy Manning: 00:14:33

That's such a good point. And I also love that you brought up the, the idea that women as caretakers, right? So we're caretaking families, we're caretaking in our careers.

You know, it seems like we're caretaking everything and everyone except ourselves. And, and part of it, you know, I think it kind of goes hand in hand with some people pleasing and it.

I wonder how much people pleasing, how much that keeps us in a state of shame, you know, like that we're sort of in this kind of cycle. What do you think about that?

Annalie Howling: 00:15:07

There were very few people that I have met when, if we start working together who believe they're worthy of unconditional love exactly as they are. Not when you've cleaned the house, had a wax, got the drop, that last ten pounds. Sign that business deal.

There's always a but I need to be more or I need to do more to deserve love. And I do think that comes from good girling early, you know, you tidied your room. What a good girl. Oh, you did so well at school. What a good girl.

You know, I do think that.

I know that men have it as well, but we're just specifically speaking about women and the caregiving and the, you know, like I say, coloring within the lines, not making a mess. Our emotions are untidy. The reason my book is called Unapologetic is the first moment.

It is about people pleasing and not saying sorry for being ourselves.

But the moment that we become emotional, the moment the mask breaks for any reason, grief, anything, the first word out of someone's mouth as a tear drops is sorry.

And I really want to take a stand for, you know, why is it that when we cry, the most natural stress relief, when my daughter cries, I'm like, it's really smart, honey. You're letting stress out rather than stuffing it deep down into your system that we'll have to deal with 10,000 years later, you know, and it be.

It come out as something else. But if we get upset, if I'm in a group of people, even in. In work that I do, people will say sorry the second they become emotional.

Because I think we've been conditioned to think that our emotions are messy and untidy and. Or I don't want to trouble do by me being a mess. You know, it's literally, I'm such a mess when we're crying.

And it's the most beautiful thing to witness if someone's able to become vulnerable enough and feel safe enough or simply they can't maintain the act any longer because clearly being around you has allowed this out. So I really do think that a lot of the early conditioning, caregiving, being rewarded for. Oh, you took care of that. You looked after that person.

That was so kind of you to share that. That was lovely. Don't get me wrong. You know, we have rules in my house, but there's that.

I think there was so much conditioning around that that we lost our agency. I did some videos with my daughter that were on my Instagram page about sort of where you're first given shame. And in one of them, I'm.

I'm speaking to her. Like, I don't speak to her. You know, how I was spoken to. And I'm saying to her, I want you to go over there and give that person a hug.

You don't want to make them feel bad, now, do you? You know, creepy uncle, whoever, that we don't know.

And it was an example of one of the first times that you're told you're making your caregiver unhappy, this stranger unhappy. And despite whatever experience you might be having, you're told that you have to put somebody else's needs above your own.

In this moment, you lose your agency. And I do think that, you know, not making anyone wrong here or any parents or anything like that, but those are experiences that add up over time.

And fundamentally, we learn that it's important to please others above ourselves.

Roxy Manning: 00:18:06

I'm glad you're bringing that up too, because I know in our house, and I really had to work on my husband and like the older generation, especially, because when they see, like, a child crying, the first reaction is, oh, don't cry. You know, and it's like, that's so unhealthy. It's like, let this child. Like. Like you're saying, express emotion and express feeling and, like, let.

Let it out. Because the worst thing they can do is just keep that bottled in.

Annalie Howling: 00:18:32

Yeah. And then you get further.

Quite often, families can be one of the worst sources, because then even when you're older and someone will say, oh, you were always so sensitive. Oh, you're being so sensitive. What if I am? You know, like, this is just shaming me for having an emotion now as well. It's. Yeah.

There can be sort of characters often, and given. Are you being so sensitive or why are you crying again? Or you're all, you know, you're always doing this or something like that, that.

And it's like, oh, okay, well, I'm not meant to do that, and that gets me in trouble, or that gets me love denied and these sorts of things. So we learn to pretend and maintain an act.

Roxy Manning: 00:19:05

It's like, why is sensitivity also a negative thing? Like, why is being, you know, very in tune with your emotions and, you know, very unable to express them, really?

Because I find that, like, my daughter is very sensitive, and I feel like she experiences things, like, in real time. I mean, she really is such a feeling person, and for some reason, that's, like, frowned upon. That's like a negative. And I just. I wonder why that is.

Annalie Howling: 00:19:34

And it's such a superpower, you know, she's probably got such a good intuition. She probably. Yeah. When you feel deeply, it's a really beautiful thing. And, like, it's. People get.

I think people get very uncomfortable about the emotion it's bringing up in them, and they see crying as losing control. It's this. It's this perfectionism thing again, the. Sorry, I'm such a mess. It's. It's this fear of.

Of somehow being socially humiliated or losing control. And you're like, well, it's like I say, it's an honor. It's an honor that you shared that with me in this space.

It's an honor to witness you, you know, doing that. And like I said, she's either bumped her knee or someone's been mean. I'm glad she's letting it out. It's the most natural way to release stress.

But this. Sorry. This automated sorry is something I really want to help us stop.

Roxy Manning: 00:20:22

Right. That's such a good point. How we reclaim our power is so important, and it's really, really a journey.

And I know, you know, power sometimes for women can feel like a Dirty word. You know, like, we're not supposed to want to be powerful or go after power. Right? Like, we're supposed to want to just sit back and let.

Let things happen. So how do we start owning our power, especially as women, without being, quote, unquote, too much or the fear of being too much? Like, why can't.

Like, how do we just do it?

Annalie Howling: 00:20:54

Yeah, I mean, I would say about the too much thing, like, I hadn't really dug into it until I was writing the book. And then I was like. And I was asking loads of my girlfriends and I can even ask you, like, has anyone ever told you what too much is?

Roxy Manning: 00:21:05

No, I've never gotten a definition, but I know I've been told I'm too much.

Annalie Howling: 00:21:09

Oh, you've been told you're too much. Right. Okay. And I mean, both of us could probably be like, if I said to you, could you think about someone that was a bit too much at college?

You'd be like. Like, you know, and. But we. Why was that? Why were we told they were too much? Like, no, it's.

I swear, it's this kind of bizarre trick of the patriarchy that is keeping us. It's pitting us against one another. So this is this power thing. I don't think we're fearing power in the sense of we can't do it.

I mean, look at all the things we do. You know, there's. There's no lack of capability or ability. I think we fear the lack of support that we believe comes with gaining power.

Who does she think she is? Like, what are you doing? You know, I put, you know, yeah, who. What do you think this is all about? Why should you have that? And I don't.

I think there's this real fear around the sisterhood falling away. And unfortunately, quite often that does happen to almost revalidate that you become maybe isolated when you are reclaiming your power.

But I want to say, because it has happened to me, you know, I reclaimed my power. Not in a. I'm not currently running Goldman Sachs, but watch this space, you know, like, who knows where this may go, but.

And when I was in the pits of despair, going through my divorce, single parent lockdown, you name it, everything. Business is tanking, global recession. I had different people around me then who supposedly saw me and supported me and wanted the best for me.

But then some of the best started happening. Some of my power came back. And I would say a term I really love is soft power. Like, I'm quite. I'm a very gentle person. But I, you know, I've got.

Got a bit of fire within me to kind of keep things going. But I was beginning to get my power back. I was feeling more like me. I was feeling more like me than I ever had.

And then people started to fall away and you realize, wow, you really did only support me when I was smaller, which is very, very hurtful and very difficult. So I think that the fear almost of the power is that. That we know some people will fall away from our life.

But I'd like to say to anyone listening is that if you're afraid of being too much, you know you're never going to be enough.

Just, just that if people really can't cheer for you at any stage of your life, whatever's happening, they probably aren't waiting for you to win, they're waiting for you to fall and look for a crack. There's obviously something going on in their lives they need validated by you not succeeding. And when you do that is entirely to do with them.

I'm not going to say it's not difficult. It is. I'm not going to say it can't feel lonely. It can. But you do get your people entering your life.

I mentioned I was at this, this sort of solstice, a book event, it's beautiful in the English countryside today. And it was 40 women just, you know, releasing. But also reclamation was a word that was used a lot.

The reclaiming, reclamation of self, reclamation of power. What could be possible if we had those kind of meetings together, even like once a month, Imagine what we could do.

You'd have no fear if you knew that the sisterhood was around you, cheering you on at every single step, reminding you of your power.

If someone's listening to this and you've got a friend that's doing something bold, whatever it is, a 5k race, starting a business, leaving a relationship, starting a relationship after loss or fear. Cheer them on and cheer them on loudly and let them know that you'll be there for them if it, you know, if it doesn't work out.

Because I think those are the stories.

I was on an interview yesterday for Bloomberg TV and lovely guy who's got teenage daughters and he's like, look, I'm really worried as a dad of teenage daughters, as a stat that's just come out, you probably heard it. Only 2% of pitches to VCs are from female founders. And why is that? And, you know, let's cheer more people on, let's open the doors together.

Because it serves all of us rather than thinking that if someone else wins, it takes something from us.

Roxy Manning: 00:24:55

That's such a good point. And I, I think about my daughter as well. My daughter's also at 10, so very close in age to your daughter.

Annalie Howling: 00:25:02

Yeah.

Roxy Manning: 00:25:03

And I do think about notion of friendships, especially with her and other female friendships and how do we teach our children about these sort of types of, you know, toxic relationships and how to avoid them and you know, making their way through because, you know, especially at this age with them, you know, it's a very, very tricky time for friendships.

Annalie Howling: 00:25:24

Yeah, yeah, we've had some, some friendly stuff. I'm sure you have some hiccups in the road, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, there's a kind of, of.

I think there's, it's a really interesting thing. All I would say is as long as they feel able to talk to you and, or, and, or they've got someone to talk to.

Like some of my best friends, we call them the aunties. And I say to, I say to them, talk to her about these things.

You know, like, obviously she's little now, as she gets bigger, I want her to always have like kind of the different generations around that are able to support her and answer these questions. And as long as we're talking and we're sharing, I always, I mean, Amber knows I'm always like, like, and I say this to her a lot.

I maybe don't know the answer. I never try and be a perfect parent. I never try and pretend to her that I'm perfect. I apologize when I get it wrong with her.

And I said, I always say to her, honey, mummy will figure it out. And that's kind of positive that we can. And also for her, we'll figure it out.

You know, let's find out if, you know, maybe that person was having a bad day or maybe they are not the greatest friend to hang around with right now. But we'll figure this out.

Let's just work on that together and making her safe enough to always talk to me about these things and know, knowing that, you know, there have been some times I never thought I'd want to go and, you know, murder a seven year old right there with you, like, you know, like for being really cruel and things like that. But yeah, I think that as long as she's speaking to me about it and we try and find our way.

Roxy Manning: 00:26:49

Through, you know, and we also need that same type of advice because as grown women, you know, we navigate these kinds of relationships where maybe when we, we Became friends with somebody, you know, we thought they had the best of intentions, and slowly but surely they revealed themselves. And it's a toxic friendship. So what do we do if we find ourselves in these toxic friendships as grown women?

Annalie Howling: 00:27:13

Out. Get out, get out, get out. It's dangerous. Exactly that. It's toxic and it seeps in. And there is. I've been on the receiving end myself.

I've had a lot of clients in.

I see clients for betrayal trauma, not just from romantic relationships, but from supposed friends that were just basically awaiting a downfall and helping it along. And people like that are never, ever going to cheer for you. I know that now.

You know, even if you were a table and you've got some news and you realize that someone isn't completely. They're not completely delighted. They're not going to change.

They're hoping that something bad happens or at least your shine is a little bit less like, you know, at 44, I haven't got the time for that. I want people in my life and my daughter's life, because I'm obviously the gatekeeper for her as well, who are positive and champions. I don't mean.

By that, everyone has to tell me that I'm right all the time. My friends certainly don't. They will absolutely call me out on my. But they do it kindly and they're doing it in honor of my highest self.

They'll be like, that wasn't you. Like, that's not cool. That's kind of, you know, come on, you. You can do better than that. And I really appreciate that, and I do that with them.

But if you've got people who gossip, they're using the currency of gossip, you know, be very, very wary about that. Like, we all like a little bit of tea here and there.

But if people are just like, wait till I tell you about so and so, and wait till I tell you about this, and you won't believe that, run. Because that is someone who is also collecting these things from you. You know, they're recycling this kind of information.

And also I'm like, well, how have you got the time?

But I'm busy, like, you know, writing a book or building something cool or thinking it's like, lovely to my daughter or planning an awesome date with my boyfriend or doing something nice for me. Like, how have you got the time to be your. Your side hustle is trying to bring people down. Like, congrats. It's just, what's the point?

So, yeah, I would say to anyone, I'm sorry if it's happening, it's really shitty. It's happened to me and it's entirely on them, not you.

The thing that I do get that I want to say, I get a lot of people that actually end up with some shame from it. Like, well, how could I have been so stupid? How did I not see it coming?

And quite often if we have got a toxic friend, maybe some of your other friends didn't like them that much and you knew, you know, some of your maybe older or different friends are like, yeah, I never really liked so and so that much or you kind of knew they didn't really get each other. And I just want to say if you were the kind hearted soul that kind of took that person in and believed them because why wouldn't you?

There's nothing that you've done wrong. There's no shame that you should carry. You were good, kind person who assumed that other person was the same. They're not.

But your soft heartedness is your superpower. There's nothing you've done wrong here. And the reason you couldn't see it coming is because you can never think like them.

You can never think like someone like that. And so, and be grateful frankly because I, I sleep really well at night because my clear conscience is my softest pillow.

And I'm glad I don't have thoughts like that. I think that'd be a horrible way to live in that mind.

So I just want to say to anyone that feels betrayed and is maybe carrying a little bit of shame about why they didn't see something coming you couldn't have done because you don't think like that.

Roxy Manning: 00:30:27

Absolutely.

You know, I, I was actually reading a little bit more about toxic people and they actually stake out people who are empaths and like good of heart because it's something that they will never be, you know.

Annalie Howling: 00:30:40

Yeah, they lack it. Yeah. It's, it's literally moth to a flame. It is literally that. And so are attracted to your light. So again take that as a compliment.

You have a light that they are attracted to. But that is why boundaries are so important. So I mean with some people, let's just say you're a bit worried about someone.

You're not sure that's what we put a boundary in. You're, you're allowed to demote people in your life. That's okay. Like you don't have to be. Oh, but I haven't sent them a message today.

I didn't reply to their message straight away like I normally do. I didn't that's all right. You know, we're.

We're allowed to kind of change and shift around in our life, and we're allowed to change and shift around in how much time we spend in certain relationships. We are allowed to transform. We're allowed to adapt. And it's fundamentally our life.

But, yeah, they do actively, whether it's conscious or subconscious, but they are attracted to the light of a good, caring person because they're fundamentally empty, like, deeply empty inside. And so they want to come.

And effectively, they fill their tank with your joy and everything of yours and sort of suck all this up with this great big Nesquik straw because they don't have that kind of goodness within them. Because they don't have goodness within them. It can't stay. And then the mask slips.

And that's when often you're the one that has given, given, given, given, given, given, given, given some more, and then they pull the rug.

Roxy Manning: 00:32:06

Why is it so hard for women to end these types of relationships, you know, to. To break. Break up with these types of friends? I mean, I think it goes back to, like, you know, feeling shameful and.

Annalie Howling: 00:32:17

Feeling, you know, like, be a bad girl. That'd be. You'd be a bad girl. That'd be a really. Roxy, what a bad girl. I can't believe you broke up with whoever. Like, wow, it's so bad of you.

You know, like, yeah, it's about being shamed and being judged. But, you know, in our parents generation, even maybe a little while ago, we could have just lost touch.

That's the other thing I say to people is, you know, we've lost, in this generation of being interconnected with social media, you never get the opportunity to lose touch with people, you know, unless you do something dramatic, like, I've unfollowed them. Yeah. You know, they're on the scene. Like, I. You know, so you don't. If you think back to our parents, they would meet people on holiday.

Bestie, bestie pals. Never seen them again. Like, absolutely fine. You know, you had a job. I mean, how many of us are in touch with all of the people we ever work with?

We're not. We've stayed in touch with a few people that. And sometimes people come back in when you. You change or shift. And, like, all of that's okay.

But, yeah, I think it comes into being a bad girl.

We feel if we're bad, if we almost don't like something about somebody, or we feel bad if we're unable to keep up with the demands of that relationship and keep that person happy. It's, it's bad girling. I feel like a bad girl, right?

Roxy Manning: 00:33:25

Oh, we need to let go of this like bad girl notion. You know, it just, it's just so. It causes so many problems, you know.

Annalie Howling: 00:33:33

Does. It does.

And for the people in your life, whether you're a parent, parent deferred babies, whatever, caring for your parents, any, anyone that you're responsible and that you love, if you're suffering from a toxic person, if you think about it like an iPhone battery that is depleting you so much because it does, it corrodes, it depletes.

And then the people that you really do love and that you really do get value from and you value them, that's the percentage they're getting of you because you've been good girling and giving yourself these toxic places that are eating away at you. And so it may feel cruel, but actually the greatest gift you can give to people you love is your own joy.

Like my daughter needs joyful mummy, not perfect mummy. My daughter needs the mummy that is just happy and open to be with her, but also just happy in myself because she feeds on off off that for me.

She doesn't need me people pleasing. And guess what? I've never been a class rep. Lucky you.

I didn't do the bouncy castle at something because I was away doing something else, you know, and it's like, I mean the mums at the school now are amazing but you know, I haven't, they're awesome but I haven't like homemade granola and done little packets or thank you gifts from her party and stuff. And it's like some things just have to give.

And I sort of, thankfully with this, like I said, this new lease of life for me, this shameless life, I never hurt anyone. Like that would be the worst thing I could do would be hurt somebody, like cause someone pain or cruelty, especially from the work that I do.

But the most important thing for me is cultivating my own joy so that she gets it first and then the other people that I really love in my life get it as well. So if somebody is in a situation that someone is consistently making you feel crappy, you're taking that to the people that you love as well.

So I'm offering that as a reframe.

I know that some people feel very selfish and very bad girly for putting a boundary in with someone, especially when you've known them for a really long time. Like history seems to be a massive factor in that.

But another little reframer for people is like, if you met that person at a party right now or whatever in an elevator or something like that, and you spoke to them and they told you all their beliefs, how they live their life, everything right now, would you be like, amazing or would you go, you know, because you may just not be aligned anymore. And that is okay because that won't be serving either of you, like dancing around and being in an act.

Roxy Manning: 00:36:03

And what about if the breakup needs to be a romantic partner? Because I feel like also at this time in our lives, you know, we're fighting ourselves, we're reclaiming our power, like you're saying.

But then sometimes that means that you're not in line with your romantic partner anymore. So how does that play out?

Annalie Howling: 00:36:22

I mean, that is exactly what happened to me. And you'll know, because it's in the book, that that is exactly what happened to me in my marriage.

And I, we were in a place where things were not good. And so I set about on a quest to find anything and everything that would save my marriage. Every course, it's obviously, it's all in the book.

Every course, every podcast, every book, every session with a coach or a therapist or anything that I could do to try and fix my marriage. And spoiler alert, everyone, I am divorced very happily in an amazing new relationship. It didn't work. But what I found was me.

And actually I've never had a regret about leaving my marriage. I don't mean that to be disparaging against my ex husband. We have a very good co parenting relationship. We get on fine.

It was absolutely the right thing for all of us. And I found the me, the whole me. And when I did, I knew that she could never fit in the container of that relationship. It just wouldn't work.

And that doesn't make anyone wrong. That just means that I was in a place and him that that was no longer compatible.

And the best solution for our family, because it still is in our modern family way, was for us to separate and always communicate with my daughter, she was three and a half at the time, that, you know, didn't want to have one unhappy home. So she has two really happy homes and we're still friends. We're just not married anymore. And that was.

There was never a moment that that didn't work out. Now, I'm not saying that was the perfect thing to do, but it helped me to realize that I just simply couldn't fit in that marriage.

And that was no one's Fault. My favorite. I wear a lot of. Anyone ever watched me online. I have a lot. I always have a snake on me somewhere, like some kind of gold snake.

The symbol. And it's because the snake, if it doesn't shed its skin, it dies. The reason a snake sheds its skin, the reason you.

If you ever see a snake skin, it's inside out as well. Where it's literally slithered out of it, is as a snake grows, the capillaries between its scales expand.

And if it were to stay in the same skin, the same old skin, it would quite literally suffocate. So we're given these transitions and changes in life. If you have a partner that changes with you, amazing. Like, genuinely incredible.

And please, like, you know, share that love and support people that are maybe not in that place and keep the doors open and help other people going through it.

If you find yourself as someone that can know if you're being restricted and constricted and suffocated in something, it's okay to need to leave that. And I would just say that from someone on the other side. Have things been difficult? Yes.

But I was never more anxious than when I was desperately trying to figure it out or try and make something work that fundamentally just couldn't anymore. It was simply incompatible. And it doesn't have to be this huge, catastrophic.

You know, no one slept with a neighbor or sold the family silver or, you know, it was nothing like that.

But I think that from some things I do see when maybe conversations aren't able to be had or people maybe don't face up to this kind of thing, or they. You then take what's called exits to the relationship, which can be drugs, alcohol, and cheating. But they can also be working, exercise.

You know, you can do. You can remove intimacy and effectively exit a relationship despite being in it in a number of different ways. And I've seen that play out as well.

And I would say that, you know, don't shame yourself if you have grown in a different direction. It's okay.

Roxy Manning: 00:39:59

It's okay. And growing. Speaking of growing, we're also talking a bit about aging and the changes that happen during this time.

So as we know, you know, we can start to look different.

Annalie Howling: 00:40:11

Right?

Roxy Manning: 00:40:11

The wrinkles come, weight changes, hormonal shifts, all that kind of stuff. But what are the. Some of the most common shame triggers around our bodies at this time in midlife? And how do we push back?

Annalie Howling: 00:40:25

Back? I think there is a. I actually, I mean, in the UK in particular, there's.

And I know in The States, but a couple of very big selling books and movements around menopause. You've been very helpful to get that talked about. Have positive role models as well. But it's always kind of as is menopause.

You know, you don't have a period for a year and then it's like, oh, I went through the menopause. It's always kind of post that. I think we're having some more language now about perimenopause. Like I said, I'm about to turn 44, 100.

I've got a few symptoms, there's no question about it. I'm doing, working with a few people to kind of, you know, ease into this transition. But I think we.

It's almost like you have to hide away and kind of come back out. You know, it's almost like you.

I think some of the shame based narratives is that one should sort of go away to posture and then only reemerge when you're perfect again. You know, we couldn't possibly have a hot sweat, you know, staying in somebody else's house or any.

I think we need to we again, masking, mask the symptoms, mask your aging mask. Ask a million different things that might be happening to you and then maybe someone does get something done. I'm very. I have Botox.

Like I don't have anything else on my face. I have Botox and some stubby lasers that are painful but apparently it works. So they're fine here.

Roxy Manning: 00:41:38

Here for the lasers and Botox.

Annalie Howling: 00:41:39

Yes, I'm here for the laser boat. Of course I am. I'm forward, nearly 44. I like the sun. Like be ridiculous of me to say otherwise. Absolutely ridiculous.

And that's what I choose to use and do. And if somebody else prefers themselves looking another way, then you do that.

But I think, think the societal pressures and this almost behind closed doors, kind of like, oh no, don't talk to us about perimenopause or like these ugly symptoms. Just have this sort of, you know, keep calm and carry on. Very British saying. But let's, let's not talk about any of these things.

I mean even the medical institutions, you know, well, it could be this or it could be that, but who knows? Good luck. You're like, great, I'll just find my way. Like, you know, okay, that's brilliant. So I just don't have a period for a year.

That means I've had the menopause. Yeah, that's it. Fab. Thanks. You know, like this. So thankfully, like I said, there's A lot more narrative and a lot of books coming out now.

But I think it's been a really. You feel quite isolated, I think actually and because it's almost not a, you know, coming of age with friends as you came through.

Okay, maybe when you started menstruating and started your periods in teens, you know, like, were you the, were you the last one or the first one?

But it was probably, let's be honest with you, within a couple of years together with your friendship groups and you went through other life stages because of education system kind of at the same time. Whereas I think this becomes a bit of a. You may not be on the same journey as a friend of yours.

You know, lots of my friends are different ages as well and at different stages of their lives. And I think it can feel a little bit isolating. I think you can start to. Because again of the fantastic non diagnoses of these things.

Oh well, it could be a headache or it could be that, you know, you know, so there's, I think the lack of kind of clarity can also make you question yourself again. And yeah, I think there's, I think there is great work being done.

I'm really pleased about some of the people in the space who are really actively talking about it and talking about some of the shameful areas that maybe we wouldn't.

And I mean, Dr. Amy Killen, who I know is brilliant in this, if anyone wants to look to someone who is giving very helpful advice and not afraid to go there, but I think that we need to do a bit more there and again, sort of sharing in with. And this is what helped me.

And if you think a friend might be struggling, kind of holding your hand out because it's I think quite nerve wracking going through a stage where there just seems to be like I say, a massive chasm of no information and you're just sort of hoping to get through it with your eyes closed somehow.

Roxy Manning: 00:44:07

Absolutely. I know. And I think it is really important that women know they should be able to do whatever they want.

If that means, you know, doing Botox and lasers or not doing Botox, you know, it's like it's whatever you want to do.

Annalie Howling: 00:44:21

It's your body, it's your, it's your life, it's your body, it's your face. I mean, my God, you know, please, that's reclaiming your power. Reclaim your agency.

I remember watching, I don't know if you watched the Pamela Anderson documentary.

Roxy Manning: 00:44:33

Yes, I did. Wasn't that great?

Annalie Howling: 00:44:35

Oh, I mean, unbelievable. But she talked about when she started to do the photographs at the first, first beginning of the photographs, which were very sexual in nature.

And she said it was because of being sexually assaulted twice when she was younger and that was her reclamation. She's like, well, you. Someone took my sexuality from me before I was ever ready to share it and it should never have been shared.

So that was my way of reclaiming.

And so I think maybe at this point in midlife, perhaps I'm using quite an extreme example, but I think, you know, the, the Unapologetic book is for that. It's like, you know what, it's. I've said, sorry, I've tried to fit in, I've tried to placate you. I've tried to be like everyone else. I've done that.

I'm now in mid-40s. I'm not going to do that anymore.

I did school pickup today in a black full length dress with a split up the side because I came straight from an event and I was a bit. I did get out of the car and I was like, oh, this is potentially a bit too much. And I was like, you know, I had to come straight here.

This is what we're doing right now.

I think maybe some of the people in reception were like, okay, bit different, you know, that actually no one cared because everyone's got to pick up their own kid for their own dental appointment and something else. And yeah, I would just say we've done it one way so far to this point and we are at the midpoint.

So why don't we try the other half doing it how we like and see how we feel at the end of that. Because I think that we, we don't have, you know, it's not a rehearsal.

And the only person, like I say with the tank of joy we need to really fill is our own in order to give that to those that we really love. So why don't we start by making choices that suit us, not other people?

Roxy Manning: 00:46:08

Absolutely. And I love that you use the word unshackle, which is so visceral.

You know, what's the first sort of chain that women can break to start living this sort of unapologetic life?

Annalie Howling: 00:46:23

Should. So let's have a, like a great. I should in my, in my work, in my view, you should. Should be a swear word. We all have the biggest. Is my kitchen.

We have the biggest pile of shirts. I should write those thank you cards. I should call so and so I should get back to them.

I should go to dry cleaners I should have done her dress for tomorrow. I should have done this, I should have done that. I should lose five pounds.

I should have been at this point, at this point in the summer, I should have been doing this kind of thing here. I should have got back to you. I should have done that. Literally. Literally a massive pile of shirts.

And the thing is we should, if it's a great exercise, if people want to list out their shoulds, please list them out and then have a look at it and have a look at how many of those shoulds are for you, but not for society. How I should look, not for other people. Should have gotten this thing, done this thing, done something else.

Pleasing other people, meeting someone else's needs even. And then write a list. I did eat. Do a little cleanse there on and then write a list of what you want. And it's going to probably be much shorter.

Some peace. Want some peace? I want a beautiful cup of coffee. Set outside in the sunshine, sun on my skin.

I just want to take some time and I don't know, do a little declutter a few space. I've been traveling a lot lately. I want to hang with my kid, hold her hand in mine and watch a movie.

I want to have a beautiful experience with my boyfriend and have an amazing date night. Like, it's a very different list. It's a very different list. Maybe I do want to move my body, but I want to move it in a way that makes me feel good.

Like the energy is totally different. So one of the first things to do, please everyone, even make a pile of you should and have a look at how much of it is there, there.

And then I would say go through that and be really rigorous and if need to be, get a friend. An accountability partner is great. We've all got the friend that's a little bit shouty. Get that one, you know, who's like, you don't need to do that.

You don't need to do that. You don't need to do that. You know, get them to do that.

You can even put it on like the parking lot we call it so you can have it for later and you can agree to come back to it in a week, two weeks, a month, whatever. Spoiler alert. When you do, it's probably completely irrelevant. But you know, nail down the absolute.

The world will stop turning if I don't do these shoulds. Probably for me, something school related, whatever, you know, but like there's not many.

And then look at how much space you've suddenly created for something that you want. And we almost feel like we can't.

This again is the shaming, the good girling that be busy, the do, do, do, do, do, the earn love, the, you know, task, task, task, task, task. It's almost going to feel uncomfortable. To start with, you've got to build the muscle of want, want. We've got to learn to drop the shoulds.

But that's one of the most amazing things. It's a great gift you can give to yourself.

Roxy Manning: 00:49:22

Oh, that's great. And for the women who really feel stuck right now and ashamed and like, what is the very first thing they can do today?

Like, today, after they listen to this to start, you know, letting go of the shame and really stepping to the person they want to be or need of you.

Annalie Howling: 00:49:42

I am out of time. I'm too late. Ashamed. So the first thing they can do is write that down and go and burn it, honestly, because it's just a lie. That's an absolute lie.

And. Or interrogate it. So another thing to do is be to look at that.

Whatever the state, try and do the statement, I am out of time, I am too late, I am slow, I am lazy. Whatever it might be that is like under underneath that balloon belief, then really dig into it.

Because, I mean, one of my questions would be, is that yours? As in, is that really awesome? People go, yeah, yeah, I do believe that. Of course I do. I'm 60, I'm whatever. I'm too late for me to find love.

And I'll be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on, is it yours? Or did someone or something give that to you? I. E. Did you grow up thinking that? That. Did you grow up thinking 60 was too old for love?

Did you grow up with, have you seen positive role models? Has somebody else said to you, you'll never find love? You know, where has this belief come from?

Because I'm willing to pretty much bet it's come from other places that you've collected along the way. And it's just been revalidated a lot by negative experiences, commentary, social media. I mean, here's. Here's an unbelievable fact.

But they know now to push beauty products to young girls according to how many selfies they've taken. So they know that if they've taken 60, 70 selfies, it means they didn't like them because if you took one, you loved it, you'd stop.

And so the second then they go onto their algorithm, they're immediately pushed with beauty products because they're obviously feeling Insecure feel. So. Isn't that terrible?

Roxy Manning: 00:51:27

That's insane. Gosh.

Annalie Howling: 00:51:29

Isn't that terrible?

Roxy Manning: 00:51:30

Yeah.

Annalie Howling: 00:51:30

Yeah. So they know that how many you've taken because it probably means that you were not just randomly take. You know, you probably went loving 60 photos.

You did that many.

And then when you open your phone to go onto a social media channel or a place they can place an ad, you're going to get pushed beauty products because you feel insecure. So that's what I mean about interrogating these beliefs. Is it yours? Do you really believe you're out of time? Really?

And if you weren't, if you dig into that belief and kind of should it again, like, where did it come from? If that wasn't true, what would you do? I booker I'd. You know what, I'd take the pressure off probably.

That's probably what I'd do if I felt like I was too late. I probably go, oh, I wouldn't. I wouldn't feel like a failure.

I would book that trip that I've been saving for when I met someone or when this thing happened. The I'll be happy when I'd go anyway, I would do that spare bedroom up for me because I don't mind if a future partner likes that paint color or not.

I love it and it makes me feel great. You know, that's the. That's what I'd be doing and that's what I'd say to people. Please inter find the belief and please look at where that came from.

From. Because none of us are born with shame. None of us are born with these I am statements.

They are often given to us during traumatic events and other languages and they are revalidated throughout other things in society and then almost gone a detox of those things and then see how you feel. Like one of my little favorite sayings is ask me on a different day. So that's another piece of advice.

Is that not that voice probably isn't always loud all of the time, but it might be on. You know, a good example would be Sunday night.

Maybe you've had a few cheeky wines on a Saturday, a few roses in the sun in the English summer, and you may be a little bit tired and emotional. That is not the time for me to start doom scrolling and comparing my body to someone else's on Instagram. That is not the time.

You know, good night's sleep, nice meal, back into my routine. I could look at that the next day and it would have no effect on me. Me. So it's kind of also doing good hygiene with yourself as well in that.

Hang on a minute. I'm feeling really insecure. I feel like I'm really susceptible to the shooting and the shaming and the really being down on myself.

Let me just check my foundations being looked after properly. Have I had enough sleep? I made, you know, the best possible sleep hygiene that I can to facilitate that.

The best way I can choose what food I'm eating to the best of my ability.

I can choose the people that I'm around because maybe sometimes I'm around certain people that are adding to that feeling of, of negativity or limiting beliefs for me. Like have a look at the environmental factors and then quite often bit like the list of shoulds that you can put in the parking lot.

Ask me on a different day because tomorrow it's going to be something completely different for me.

Roxy Manning: 00:54:25

Absolutely. Oh my gosh. And it's so much of it too, I feel like is hormone driven.

Like if I'm feeling, you know, based on our cycles and oh my gosh, you can feel so bad about yourself, yourself one day and then the next day like you're saying something doesn't even bother you.

Annalie Howling: 00:54:39

Yeah, completely. And so it's the, it's the. And be really kind to yourself.

That's the other thing I think we do is that we have that, you know, like on, on Saturday it's the solstice.

I found out today that we used to all bleed at the same time on the new moon and it would be called the red heart or something where we'd all go and gather together and we would ask each other what we needed to best support one another and how we all were like the complete community around that. Like such sisterhood, good magic. I love it. And yeah, but we now, I think again we don't want to show it.

You know, take a sanitary product under your hand, under your sleeve to the toilet. Like heaven forbid someone knows you're having a period.

You know, it's all this like hiding at the perimenopause stuff and not asking for help or you know, not saying and those sorts of things and then having a reaction that's not perfect and then we shame ourselves for that even more. You're like, like I'm literally this hormonal moon based goddess creature. And you know, that's happening to me right now.

So being really hard on yourself when actually your body's begging you in that moment for softness and kindness due to you being more sensitive, it's counterproductive as well.

Roxy Manning: 00:55:49

What advice would you give your 25 year old self?

Annalie Howling: 00:55:54

She was, she was heading towards a burner out. So yeah, she was ignoring a lot of stuff. She was sweeping stuff under the rug. She was wildly careering towards a burnout.

I would just, I would really want to tell her it's going to be okay. And you don't need to, you don't need to be so hyper independent and you don't need to push so hard. You can, it's okay.

The kind of thing I almost full circled with like, you are lovable, you are worthy of love. Love exactly as you are. You have nothing to prove.

Roxy Manning: 00:56:28

And how are you living iconically right now?

Annalie Howling: 00:56:32

Oh, I love that question. I mean, the school pickup was quite iconic, I've got to be honest. That was like, I actually had a lot more jewelry on then I'd do snake earrings.

I had this big diamond choker on. I mean, I hadn't planned to do it on a gravel car park drive at my daughter's school, but you know, every day's a catwalk, so that was quite iconic.

Yeah, I would say the iconicness is genuinely the shameless freedom. So really it's about me knowing my needs and being able to own them and unapologetically and just, yeah. Embracing my soft power.

Roxy Manning: 00:57:08

Yes, absolutely. Oh, and on the iconic midlife, we always love to play a game at the end if you're up for it.

Annalie Howling: 00:57:15

I love stuff like that. This. Okay, good, good, good.

Roxy Manning: 00:57:18

Yay. So this game is called Shame or set Free. So it's a quick fire game and I'll say a scenario and you tell me if it's shameful or you set it free.

Okay, so number one, wearing a bikini at 50.

Annalie Howling: 00:57:36

Set free.

Roxy Manning: 00:57:37

Right. All the things like wear it, wear it, girl, you know.

Annalie Howling: 00:57:42

My God, right? Yes.

Roxy Manning: 00:57:44

Saying no without an explanation.

Annalie Howling: 00:57:47

My favorite, set free.

Roxy Manning: 00:57:51

Having boundaries that disappoint other people.

Annalie Howling: 00:57:54

Oh, even better. Set free. Yeah, even better.

Roxy Manning: 00:57:58

Having boundaries makes your life so much better. It really does.

Annalie Howling: 00:58:02

It's also the best thing for both people. Like, please just remember that you're doing it to salvage and keep and maintain a relationship that's important to you.

So it's not a, a shitty thing. It's. It's actually something that can help sustain and add to the longevity of a connection that matters.

Roxy Manning: 00:58:19

Absolutely. And it's great for kids too. They need boundaries. Not wanting sex as much as your.

Annalie Howling: 00:58:26

Partner, I mean, there's no shame in that. Like set free.

Roxy Manning: 00:58:32

Starting a new career in your 40s or 50s.

Annalie Howling: 00:58:35

I mean, more, more, more, more, more. So definitely set free. More, more, more, please. More, more. Ooh.

Roxy Manning: 00:58:41

Outgrowing old friendships.

Annalie Howling: 00:58:43

Definitely set free.

Roxy Manning: 00:58:47

Taking up space and speaking your mind.

Annalie Howling: 00:58:50

Well, we can't be afraid of being too much. So I have to say set free.

Roxy Manning: 00:58:55

Wanting more. More money. More attention, more joy.

Annalie Howling: 00:58:59

Ooh, well, more joy. I'm saying set free.

Roxy Manning: 00:59:02

Okay.

Annalie Howling: 00:59:03

More attention. I might be like. I mean, the therapist to me is like, what's behind that? So I'm gonna go with set free because we got. Can manifest and want more.

I would. I would underpin it with. Make sure it's for the right reasons.

Roxy Manning: 00:59:14

And more money.

Annalie Howling: 00:59:16

Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, there's enough for all of us that we don't have to be fearful money. We have to be in a lack. Mindset.

There's plenty to go around, so we just. Yeah. Again, just. Just know that it's for the.

I hope it's for the goodness of moving humanity forward in whatever way you would like, you know, and I think.

Roxy Manning: 00:59:30

There'S a real problem. Women have a hard time saying that, you know, they might be, you know, they're.

One of their goals might be making money, you know, and it's a very hard thing for women to say. And I don't think women should feel shameful about.

Annalie Howling: 00:59:42

I'm fairly sure gold digger doesn't. Doesn't apply to a man, does it? You know, there's a few terms for women that won't want to.

And even though that's like, in a relationship, you know, I've heard it said about, you know, like the whole being bossy. There's. That's only for a woman as well. And so there's a lot of negative connotations about wanting more.

Roxy Manning: 01:00:01

Okay. Feeling afraid and doing it anyway.

Annalie Howling: 01:00:04

Oh, definitely. Set free.

Roxy Manning: 01:00:07

And choosing not to have sex or choosing to have a lot of it.

Annalie Howling: 01:00:12

I mean, I have loads of it, so I'm gonna obviously say set free. Yes.

Roxy Manning: 01:00:16

Girl, you've gotta love the boyfriend, right?

Annalie Howling: 01:00:18

Oh, he's. I mean, he's terrific. So. Yeah. Set free.

Roxy Manning: 01:00:21

Oh, my gosh. How long have you guys been together?

Annalie Howling: 01:00:23

Two years. Just over two years.

Roxy Manning: 01:00:25

Oh, that's so nice. Clearly you're happy because you're glowing, lady.

Annalie Howling: 01:00:30

Thank you. Yeah, I'm very happy. He's always awesome.

Roxy Manning: 01:00:33

That's amazing. Well, consider us officially unshackled. Please pick up Annalee Howling's book unapologetic. You will just.

Annalie Howling: 01:00:42

Thank you.

Roxy Manning: 01:00:42

I mean, once I picked it up, I couldn't stop. I read the whole thing in like a day. I mean, it was so good.

Annalie Howling: 01:00:48

Oh, I love that.

Roxy Manning: 01:00:49

So much great advice in this book. So everybody please purchase it. And yes, thank you so much, Annaleigh for coming on. Your advice is everything.

Annalie Howling: 01:00:59

Oh, it's been a pleasure. It's my pleasure.

Roxy Manning: 01:01:02

Shame loses its power the moment we speak it out loud. Huge thanks to Annalee Howling for helping us name it, challenge it, and walk right through it.

This episode was a reminder that power isn't about perfection. It's about truth. And the more honest we are about what's been holding us back, the more unstoppable we become.

Follow at the iconicmedlife and edcarpetrocks across all the platforms for more episodes that hit deep and lift you higher. Tag us with your favorite takeaway and share this episode with someone who's ready to stop apologizing and start taking up space.

And don't forget, this is midlife, unfiltered, unshackled, and entirely yours.